Nobles toadying to non-nobles

[Ivarenna]

[ooc] I was looking at the available shops and cross referencing the owners to find their CHA.

So we have Erinestra CHA 12 and Grumbold CHA 9. Both non-nobles.

Ivarenna is a noble with CHA 8.

So no way can I patronise Erinestra as this would lead to a spontaneous duel. [unless I was actively looking for a fight, which I am not]

So Grumbold it is. But I was thinking that, as a noble, there is no way I would toady to a non-noble.

Should we add a rule prohibiting nobles from toadying to non-nobles? As this feels wrong.

Alternatively I could just specify in my pre turn orders that I am patronising Grumbold's establishment but not toadying (which would o/w happen automatically).

[grumbold99]

I'm trying to think of real-world examples of where a high status individual might lavish praise upon somebody that would ordinarily be considered lower status, and tradespeople (in the broadest terms) is probably the best example.

The Royal Family have always allowed certain firms to display "by royal appointment" crests on their products. In days gone by, they would even ennoble their favourites and mistresses, but in En-garde ennoblement only comes from fortunate die-rolls on campaign.

Many 'A' grade celebrities and nobles publically praise their clothing designer, hairdresser, PA etc because they value and want to maintain that relationship. I think this kind of thinig qualifies as toadying without the unpleasant undertones of unctuous fawning over somebody, so a noble - especially low status ones that are a minor noble by birth because daddy or mummy is one - should be able to toady if they choose to. Should they enter my shop, for example, they might praise my eye for the finest silks, or the quality of the jewels to be sewn onto their tunic for their Autumn Feast attire. I'm being praised, but indirectly and in a way that isn't demeaning to the praise-giver.

[Fionn]

'Toady' is a deliberately loaded term, carried over from Paris. As long as your 'host' is higher CHA than you, you both benefit from being seen together (perhaps you could put 'Greet Grumbold publicly' in your orders instead if you are sensitive about it?) Even nobles have to swallow their pride sometimes, and it is/was not uncommon to aristocrats to lend their social cachet to commoners in exchange for material benefits- even to the point of losing reputation [CPs] to benefit shopkeepers.

If you feel this is demeaning, surely you just do not specify a shop, which means your character buys from an NPC. Why complicate things further?

[Erinestra]

Toady is covering a multitude of possibilities here: a noble would ALWAYS be welcome in Erinestra's, after all the patronage alone is worth a great deal of "advertising". A noble toadying to a merchant is really just deigning to show up I'd say.

Given Erinestra is of a higher CHA, I suspect this is like Harrods, the chap owning it is clearly of high status and junior nobility probably of lower BUT that does not stop the junior noble showing up and adding lustre to the Emporium in question.

Perhaps a better approach though is to think about what this means in Glorantha: Would it be shameful for a Noble to patronise a "shop" owned by someone of higher social status? Would it be better to go to a different shop owned by someone of lower status?

I have a vested interest of coursse as I've gone down the merchant status track rather heavily but still I suspect it's not a duelworthy situation, although a noble attending a shop of someone of much higher status probably should lose some CP for not being, you know, in the right "league".

My tuppence worth.

[Puckohue]

…specify in my pre turn orders that I am patronising Grumbold's establishment but not toadying…

Toadying between shop owners and patrons is automatic and obligatory.