Toadying to ceremomy leaders limited to once per month?

[Erinestra]

There's a lot of good ideas and good points here.

What do we want? We want more player character interaction.

• Temple ceremonies offer no player interaction, and give high CP gain (for lower CHA characters).
• Private parties offer player interaction, and give CP gain, but (usually) less than temple ceremonies. They also involve the risk of duelling (which is a good thing as it's player character interaction, but can deter some characters).

So either we make temple ceremonies less attractive or more interactive, or the private parties more attractive.

At a glance, it seems the easiest solution would be to make the temple ceremonies involve player character interaction somehow:

• Limit toadying to PCs. Problems: too few (none atm) PCs able to lead ceremonies. Too few player characters per cult.
• Activate tribal hostilities at ceremonies. Meeting a tribal enemy at a ceremony would give both player characters cause for duel (so not spontaneous duels as this would be too weird, but giving cause). I like this idea a lot, as the ceremonies lack any interaction atm.

To make private parties more attractive:

• High CHA NPCs could be invited so there's someone high(er) CHA to toady to. This could be named NPCs or the NPC holder of a specific appointment/rank. I need to look at other En Garde! house rules where this is an option. High CHA NPCs wouldn't just come running if some low CHA character invited them to the Red Beaver. This is also an idea I like a lot, but I don't think it solves the "problem" in itself.

To make cult ceremonies less attractive:

• Limit the number of ceremonies available each turn.
• Limit the CP gain from consecutive ceremonies.

First off I completely missed that one could toady to an NPC ceremony giver so perhaps I count as a disinterested party (Well at least someone who is not paying attention. This does seem to be a slightly broken mechanic giving an excessive reward without commensurate risk and/or cost.

If left as is the mechanic will continue to be broken, but if altered anyone who has been relying on it will be excessively punished. So that needs to be balanced. My thoughts for what they are worth:

1. I don’t think a broken mechanic should be left in the game. The reward for toadying, to my mind, should only be available for toadying to player characters;
2. A transition is needed as otherwise people can feel legitimately aggrieved: I would suggest a transition over a period of time that people find reasonable. Two seasons seems about right to me but I am not really caught up in this;
3. I don’t think trying to uprate parties is really a solution as that then unbalances parties and ceremony toadying compared with other activities, it’s ceremonies and toadying that is broken.

My tuppence worth only, feel free to ignore.

[Fionn]

I agree with Erinestra that what needs adjusting (over time) is the mechanic of toadying to NPCs, but perhaps it need not be abolished. It could be, for example, that if you put 'toady' in your orders the NPC allows it on a roll of 1+, with -1 for every level of difference in CHA (and presumably the normal +1 for being the same cult). This would mean that piety had a reward, but not reliably: it would mean not everyone would automatically attend the High Priest's ceremony: and it offers opportunities for roleplaying contact with a specific celebrant, in case you later want him to promote you , marry you or leave the cult. It could also be a model for going to Court when that becomes relevant; at the moment it looks as if anyone who attends without a sponsor can toady to the King if desired

[Puckohue]

I'm now thinking:

A player character can toady to a ceremony leader one week per Turn.

The ceremony leader is not always the highest ranked in the cult:

High Priest (CHA 18): 7%
Chief Priest (CHA 16): 13%
Priest (CHA 13): 20%
Assistant Priest (CHA 11): 27%
Rune Lord (CHA 10): 33%

[Erik]

I'm now thinking:

A player character can toady to a ceremony leader one week per Turn.

The ceremony leader is not always the highest ranked in the cult:

High Priest (CHA 18): 7%
Chief Priest (CHA 16): 13%
Priest (CHA 13): 20%
Assistant Priest (CHA 11): 27%
Rune Lord (CHA 10): 33%

Could we have a greater chance of the High Priest taking a ceremony during Sacred Time and that cults Holy Season? Meeting a member of a hostile Cult, Tribe or Regiment at a ceremony at a Warrior Cult leads to an immediate duel after the ceremony (Warriors like fighting!) with a bonus 2CP's to the victor and 1CP to the loser. Refusing such a duel causes an extra 2CP loss (on top of the 1/2CHA loss) to members of Warrior cults.

[Puckohue]

a greater chance of the High Priest taking a ceremony during Sacred Time and that cults Holy Season?

Yes. The highest ranked in a cult leads the ceremonies during Sacred Time and cult Holy Season.

Meeting a member of a hostile Cult, Tribe or Regiment at a ceremony at a Warrior Cult leads to an immediate duel after the ceremony (Warriors like fighting!) with a bonus 2CP's to the victor and 1CP to the loser. Refusing such a duel causes an extra 2CP loss (on top of the 1/2CHA loss) to members of Warrior cults.

Interesting. It would increase player character interaction, and add a risk to ceremony participation. Anyone else have any comment on this?

[Fionn]

Meeting a member of a hostile Cult, Tribe or Regiment at a ceremony at a Warrior Cult leads to an immediate duel after the ceremony (Warriors like fighting!) with a bonus 2CP's to the victor and 1CP to the loser. Refusing such a duel causes an extra 2CP loss (on top of the 1/2CHA loss) to members of Warrior cults.

This would be fun mechanically (though of course at a ceremony you can only meet members of your own or associated cults). But is it really in the Glorantha spirit? You visit a temple to renew your dedication to the deity and hostility to Chaos, and show your piety by attacking on sight another worshipper of the same god...

And if the celebrant is variable, might Shrines have a possibility of a visiting Priest from elsewhere? We know they do visit Boldhome, to conduct marriages.

[Erik]

Meeting a member of a hostile Cult, Tribe or Regiment at a ceremony at a Warrior Cult leads to an immediate duel after the ceremony (Warriors like fighting!) with a bonus 2CP's to the victor and 1CP to the loser. Refusing such a duel causes an extra 2CP loss (on top of the 1/2CHA loss) to members of Warrior cults.

This would be fun mechanically (though of course at a ceremony you can only meet members of your own or associated cults). But is it really in the Glorantha spirit? You visit a temple to renew your dedication to the deity and hostility to Chaos, and show your piety by attacking on sight another worshipper of the same god...

And if the celebrant is variable, might Shrines have a possibility of a visiting Priest from elsewhere? We know they do visit Boldhome, to conduct marriages.

This is why I suggested it should be for members of Warrior Cults. Members can already practice their weapon skills in the Temple, it seems only logical that practicing their skills on their Cult/Tribal/regimental rivals should be encouraged. Nor do you attack on sight - the duel becomes part of the ceremony.

I agree with your suggestion that Minor Temples/Shrines should have the chance of a visiting higher ranked Priest - although I don't know what the correct chances should be.

[Ivarenna]

I'm now thinking:

A player character can toady to a ceremony leader one week per Turn.

The ceremony leader is not always the highest ranked in the cult:

High Priest (CHA 18): 7%
Chief Priest (CHA 16): 13%
Priest (CHA 13): 20%
Assistant Priest (CHA 11): 27%
Rune Lord (CHA 10): 33%

This is all very good. I also like the idea of High Priests (visiting or otherwise) conducting ceremonies during sacred time and on cult holt days. Maybe cult holy days should be on specific weeks (we could have a calendar of these).

The change is disadvantageous to any such as Broar who have gone down the two cults route. How about compensating by allowing initiates leave from cult duties to be at a base of 5+ as now, but to be adjusted by +1 on the dice for each 3 points of the character's CHA above the minimum CHA of an initiate (namely 3)? So, for example, if a character initiate has a CHA of 9 then he or she would be granted leave on a 3+ instead.

[Ivarenna]

Finally should we consider restricting toadying to ceremony leaders to Initiates or above?

Realistically would a ceremony leader such as a High Priest allow Toadying from a lay member?

[Rufus]

I don't mind what the new rules are - my character has not really benefitted from this as he has been defending Boldhome at the front (someone has to! ). I think some good points have been made. Happy with whatever people go with but I would want the rules to be simple. Extra stuff makes it more difficult for Puckohue (and for me!). So happy with changes so long as they are clear and easy to run/understand.