Toadying to ceremomy leaders limited to once per month?

[Erik]

Whilst we wait eagerly for the next turn to be revealed to us I wanted to discuss the Temple Ceremony/Party dichotomy. Imagine the following scenario:

Erik holds a party at the Scribbled Scroll and invites all characters of level 4+. Why would they come rather than go to the temple?
Harold (CHA 4) will get 3cps for toadying to Erik (CHA 10) + 4cps for Inn difference + 1cp for carousing = 8cp in total. This compares with 7cp for toadying to the High Priest (CHA 18) at the Temple of Orlanth + 1cp for the ceremony (=8cp total). Erik however gains no cps for having Harold as a guest.
Saling (CHA 7) will get 1cp for toadying + 2cps for Inn difference + 1 for carousing =4cps in total. This compares to 5cps (+1 =6) for toadying to the High Priest at the Temple. Erik will gain 1cp for having Saling as his guest. Erik would have gained 5cps for forgetting about the party and just going to the Temple.

So at present there is no point holding parties. Can I suggest the following as a possible option?
"In the first week of each month the highest ranked priest will take the ceremony at each temple/shrine. In subsequent weeks the ceremony lead will be randomly allocated to a Runelord, Assistant Priest, Priest or Chief Priest. If a rank has already taken a ceremony that month they will not take another. (Except for Shrines, where all ceremonies will be led by a Runelord). During Sacred Time the highest ranked priest will take the ceremony in the 1st and 4th week. "

After all, it is possible that player characters will, eventually, become the leading priest at their shrine/temple. They will hardly want to spend every week that month taking a ceremony, so why should an npc? (The question of possible penalties for a pc being the highest ranked cleric in their shrine/temple and NOT taking a ceremony during a month is a matter we might want to consider later. Can't have the clergy neglecting their duties!)

What do people think?

[Fionn]

Honestly, I think this solution would be worse than the percentage roll Puckohoe suggested. It is more complicated (for players and GM): it leaves minimaxing players able to select the High Priest's ceremony once a month; and it means members of Shrines (who are already penalised because there is no Priest/High Priest) worrying about whether promotion will mean they have to spend most of their time at the Temple rather than adventuring.

This problem will, of course, get less serious as potential hosts gain CHA and are able to compete with celebrants; but it won't go away, and the more complicated the solution the more players will be turned off by the length of the rules. Unless there is to be a retcon saying "no toadying to ceremony holders" (which would fit better with the heroic ethos, but spoil many careful strategies, and slow up character rise generally), I vote for the percentage plan.

[Ivarenna]

a greater chance of the High Priest taking a ceremony during Sacred Time and that cults Holy Season?

Yes. The highest ranked in a cult leads the ceremonies during Sacred Time and cult Holy Season.

Meeting a member of a hostile Cult, Tribe or Regiment at a ceremony at a Warrior Cult leads to an immediate duel after the ceremony (Warriors like fighting!) with a bonus 2CP's to the victor and 1CP to the loser. Refusing such a duel causes an extra 2CP loss (on top of the 1/2CHA loss) to members of Warrior cults.

Interesting. It would increase player character interaction, and add a risk to ceremony participation. Anyone else have any comment on this?

In those instances where a bunch of player characters are attending the same ceremony, it would be a shame if the only interaction is a duel. Perhaps there should be potential for Toadying between player characters too.

[Erik]

a greater chance of the High Priest taking a ceremony during Sacred Time and that cults Holy Season?

In those instances where a bunch of player characters are attending the same ceremony, it would be a shame if the only interaction is a duel. Perhaps there should be potential for Toadying between player characters too.

The rules state that you can only toady to one person at a time, so I am not certain how this would work.

[Erik]

Honestly, I think this solution would be worse than the percentage roll Puckohoe suggested. It is more complicated (for players and GM): it leaves minimaxing players able to select the High Priest's ceremony once a month; and it means members of Shrines (who are already penalised because there is no Priest/High Priest) worrying about whether promotion will mean they have to spend most of their time at the Temple rather than adventuring.

This problem will, of course, get less serious as potential hosts gain CHA and are able to compete with celebrants; but it won't go away, and the more complicated the solution the more players will be turned off by the length of the rules. Unless there is to be a retcon saying "no toadying to ceremony holders" (which would fit better with the heroic ethos, but spoil many careful strategies, and slow up character rise generally), I vote for the percentage plan.

I was trying to ensure that the drop in available cps from temple ceremonies was not too drastic, I know some players are worried about it, so I wanted to make certain that they could be sure of meeting the highest ranked cleric at least once in a month. I agree with you about shrines however, it penalises followers of Babeester Gor, Storm Bull and Yelmalio massively. Perhaps there should be a means whereby if a pc gets to Runelord or higher in those cults they can apply for their temple to be enlarged - and get great honour for doing so.

[Ivarenna]

In those instances where a bunch of player characters are attending the same ceremony, it would be a shame if the only interaction is a duel. Perhaps there should be potential for Toadying between player characters too.

The rules state that you can only toady to one person at a time, so I am not certain how this would work.

True. And given that everyone is toadying to the NPC High Priest that means low CHA player characters will not be Toadying to high CHA player characters. So by allowing toadying to npcs we're reducing player interaction.

[grumbold99]

I may be coming at this from a different viewpoint, but I don't see Player X explicitly toadying to Player Y at a ceremony as any more interactive than Player X and Player Y attending the same ceremony and both toadying to the priest - or to noone at all. That's just game mechanics that limit how far you can raise status before it becomes very difficult and expensive to make progress.

For me, the interactivity is more to do with the articles in the Boldhome talk section. Describing the reason for people to have been at that ceremony, life musings at the Pea Pod, merchants appealing to people to visit their shops, the delusional/divine mutterings of our resident madman/deity etc. Plus the private messages behind the scenes where people set up their planned interactions between characters, but those are by their nature far less visible.

[Torben]

I may be coming at this from a different viewpoint, but I don't see Player X explicitly toadying to Player Y at a ceremony as any more interactive than Player X and Player Y attending the same ceremony and both toadying to the priest - or to noone at all. That's just game mechanics that limit how far you can raise status before it becomes very difficult and expensive to make progress.

For me, the interactivity is more to do with the articles in the Boldhome talk section. Describing the reason for people to have been at that ceremony, life musings at the Pea Pod, merchants appealing to people to visit their shops, the delusional/divine mutterings of our resident madman/deity etc. Plus the private messages behind the scenes where people set up their planned interactions between characters, but those are by their nature far less visible.

"the delusional/divine mutterings of our resident madman/deity "......Oiy.....one trusts that's not aimed at the only true peace & healing loving PC in the game?! Shocking, all that I do for my fellow players, all the bargain deals I extend to them, the past top quality parties, invites to join a brand new and up & coming cult, offers of assistance with medical needs......sigh......

[Puckohue]

Lots of good arguments for this and that here.

For my mental health (and turn processing speed) I need something simple.

If there are no really hitting arguments against this, from AFTER Sacred Time, this will apply:

A player character can toady to a ceremony leader one week per Turn.

The ceremony leader is not always the highest ranked in the cult:

High Priest (CHA 18): 7%
Chief Priest (CHA 16): 13%
Priest (CHA 13): 20%
Assistant Priest (CHA 11): 27%
Rune Lord (CHA 10): 33%

[grumbold99]

Random gain is a bit of a nightmare. If you're going to conspicuously consume and do other expensive or risky methods of earning CPs to get promoted, you need to be pretty confident you will hit the required total when you do. If going to a service is going to earn 0-7 CPs, you just can't plan anything around it.